avonbarksdale221: True Detective Finale

avonbarksdale221 03.10.14	alright alright alright
Rowan5215 03.10.14	So it was alright then? cool
avonbarksdale221 03.10.14	> ozymandias seriously dude, stop whatever you are doing and watch this show.
Rowan5215 03.10.14	> the Wire season 4 finale? no fucking way If you watch Hannibal I'll watch this
avonbarksdale221 03.10.14	its pretty fucking close man, ive seen the wire four times so its hard to compare with a show an episode I watched 15 minutes ago. Ill just say that it was fucking incredible. ill watch hannibal eventually (after x files and house of cards), but you really should just watch it anyway. this kind of thing isn't accomplished very often.
Rowan5215 03.10.14	God damnit no I'm not watching another series and then waiting for you to watch the one I recommend you. Not fair. Anyway I can watch two shows at once so so can you. I literally burned through S1 of Hannibal in like two days and now its just one ep per week, still plenty of time for the X-Files or anything else.
avonbarksdale221 03.10.14	if you want to deny yourself the best TV series you are likely to watch this year, that's on you.
Rowan5215 03.10.14	Hannibal is 5/5 so same to you bish
FearTomorrow 03.10.14	Damn, still only seen episode 1... gotta catch up hard
avonbarksdale221 03.10.14	take a couple of days and binge through it demi, once it gets in to it there is no chance you will be able to turn it off.
ExcentrifugalForz 03.10.14	The fact they really didn't solve the conspiracy was kind of a let down for me. Why take down the whole gang when we can just get one of the henchman?
ExcentrifugalForz 03.10.14	Spoiler alert
Sleaper 03.10.14	what was with that vortex thing when rust walks into that big open-dome? and the dude whos face was stitched up.. god it was fucking weird haha
avonbarksdale221 03.10.14	SPOILERSSPOILERSSPOILERSSPILERS the vortex is one of rust's visions. the fact that they didnt unravel the conspiracy doesnt bother me; it is too large for them to possibly take down anyway. as marty said, "we got our guy." this was about rust and marty, not the cult.
Winesburgohio 03.10.14	i haven't even begun to process my thoughts but i do feel like the show took a shift - the first three episodes and the fifth are some of the most visceral and brilliant television i've seen but I felt that while the last episodes were technically accomplished they lost something ineffable along the way. THAT SAID goddamn i feel bereft now roll out season two
Winesburgohio 03.10.14	if that comment made no sense it's only because I bought a half-dozen of cheap + potent beer to get me in the spirit for the season finale 8)
avonbarksdale221 03.10.14	its all just different interpretations I guess, I agree that episodes 6 and 7 weren't quite on the same level as the first 5 (and especially 4 and 5). as I said though, I thought the finale was brilliantly done. nearly teared up in that last scene with rust and marty outside the hospital.
baldymort 03.10.14	thought the finale was pretty average. that whole sequence where childress confronted rust in the labyrinth was straight out of a shitty 90s action movie. dont get me wrong i thought the first half of the season was some of the strongest tv id seen in a while but it really went downhill around episode 5. just felt like a different show.
IronGiant 03.10.14	the finale was alright. some parts, like others have said, were cheesy. marty yelling at the guy's wife "EVERYONE HAS A PHONEEEE!!!" was kinda strange but whatever. also i didnt catch the last line said by rust which kinda pissed me off even though i kept rewinding it, the mixing in some parts of the show sucked. anyway he said sometihng about light v dark and i think it was "darks been around a lot longer but in alaska the light is winning?" or something to that effect. someone halp
Pizzahut 03.10.14	"You're looking at it wrong, the sky thing." "How's that?" "Well, once there was only dark. If you ask me the light is winning.”
Lettuce 03.10.14	I thought it was great, and it managed to end positively without coming off as disingenuous or ridiculously cheesy.
Thane 03.10.14	i liked it, even though the last couple of episodes had a little too much cheese on them and the finale felt slightly rushed with a couple clichés in there. wasn't perfect, but not nearly as bad as some ppl are saying.
Drummerboy123 03.10.14	Loved the last 10 minutes especially more than the Errol showdown. The metaphor of light and darkness and the crying hit the heartstrings where Rust shows his true emotions rather than his cynical, nihilistic personality. The showdown itself was pretty good but felt a little drawn out for me, though I am glad that when Rust got stabbed the writers decided to let him live. Good to see a show actually has the balls to have a 'happy' ending.
treefingered2 03.10.14	Best episode of the season I must say. Awesome show!
JokineAugustus 03.10.14	9.7/10 imo (whole show)
avonbarksdale221 03.10.14	Agreed Jokine. A divisive reaction to the finale was inevitable given the huge amounts of hype heaped on the show, and in the way thousands of fans set themselves up for disappointment a by an ending they convinced themselves would be unsatisfactory. So what if the "final showdown" wasn't an entirely original premise; something doesn't have to be groundbreaking for it to be excellent. All I know is, I thought my heart would burst out of chest it was beating so hard as Rust navigated his way through the Carcosa maze. As I've already stated and Nick P has asserted, the show wasnt a "whodunit" or about unravelling an immense conspiracy. It was about Rust and Marty, and i can't see how someone could be a fan of these characters and not be satisfied by the last 15 minutes of the finale. The scene outside the hospital at the end was as perfect a conclusion to the arc of two characters as I've seen on TV.
apert 03.10.14	I pretty much agree with you, people were expecting a massive twist of some sort which is probably why some people are complaining. The ending is a great example of substance over style which i'm happy about, it would have been easy to end it with some massive twist or reveal but this is so much better.
Underflow 03.10.14	Yep, this was awesome.
avonbarksdale221 03.11.14	I think it just one of those things where expectations confound reality for some people. Sometimes I think people don't even want to enjoy things.
Underflow 03.11.14	It would have been a ridiculous fairy-tale ending for Rust and Marty to unveil every conspirator and bring them all to justice. As Marty said: "this ain't that kind of world."
avonbarksdale221 03.11.14	Exactly. This was always a show that has been grounded in realism, not some sensationalist good-guys-always win bullshit. Absolutely cannot wait for season 2.
Underflow 03.11.14	Sometimes the scariest monsters are those we can't see. Errol Childress was undoubtedly a disgusting beast, but what's even worse is trying to imagine the men he worked for, the men in the masks.
avonbarksdale221 03.11.14	...And like a lot of dreams, there's a monster at the end of it. Who knows if the cult is still running anyway? The Dora Lang murder was staged 17 years ago, and the sacrafice of Marie Fontenout was older still than that. Maybe Errol has continued the ritualistic killings himself, without Tuttle and the rest of them. It certainly seems likehe was prepared to pass into another life.
Inveigh 03.11.14	one of the most satisfying seasons of television I've ever watched. It's on par with season 1 of The Wire and season 5/6 of Breaking Bad.
TMobotron 03.11.14	The finale was easily the worst episode of the season. The search through the maze was way too long, and Errol's voice being projected throughout it like he was on a PA system felt like something out of a completely different show (also, it wasn't that interesting anyway). I liked the final scene, but the whole confrontation with Errol was so underwhelming after the one in episode 5 and the end of episode 4. I didn't hate the episode, it was just the worst of the 8 and a letdown because of how good the show has been. Still easily one of the best seasons of television ever though.
Underflow 03.11.14	The confrontation with Errol was easily the most suspenseful moment of the show, even beating out the stint in the projects. Felt like I was suffocating watching that. On its own terms its terrifying, but even more so knowing that this really could be it for Rust and Marty - they're not coming back for a second season.
Taxt 03.11.14	Loved the finale. The cathartic ending took me by surprise too, but that made it all the better. There were some issues in the first half of the episode, a few things that felt rushed, but they're overshadowed by just about everything that followed. PS - Rust gets +10 badass points for the way he repeatedly headbutted Errol while he was being fucking disemboweled. I was loosing my shit during that scene haha.
avonbarksdale221 03.11.14	re: Errol's voice ringing out through the Carcosa maze Given the seemingly limitless amounts of "good killing" committed by Errol and the cult within Carcosa, I kind of just assumed that his voice wasn't ringing out over some kind of bullshit PA system. Rather, it is likely he knew every nook, every canny and every secret passageway through the maze, and was simply luring Rust deeper and deeper into the heart of Carcosa before the final showdown in front of the altar.
avonbarksdale221 03.11.14	100% agree with Taxt as well. The tension in the projects scene was palpable and shot with style unparalleled not only in this show but in the history of television. However, given that Rust and Marty were still narrating the story at that stage, Rust was never in any real danger. Watching the last episode, I truly believed that they both (and especially Rust) wouldn't survive the encounter with Errol.
Underflow 03.11.14	Avon, you and I are like TD bffs, we seem to agree on everything.
avonbarksdale221 03.11.14	We should be the stars of the next season. Seriously though, I'm just so obsessed with this show right now, haven't felt this way about a series in a long time. What are some other shows you love dude?
Underflow 03.11.14	I like a ton of shows lol, but The Wire is my favorite of all time.
avonbarksdale221 03.11.14	The Wire is ok I guess...
Underflow 03.11.14	Haha
lyzakthellama 03.11.14	Best show I've watched this year
lyzakthellama 03.11.14	Probably best I'll watch all year too
avonbarksdale221 03.11.14	New Game of Thrones is the only thing I can see being on this level
baldymort 03.11.14	Any anime fans? Attack On Titan is ridiculously good.
TMobotron 03.11.14	I apologize for the spacing on my post below. I edited my original one and Sputnik's shitty formatting removed all the line breaks, so I posted it again, which made it equally bad in a different way.
TMobotron 03.11.14	"it is likely he knew every nook, every canny and every secret passageway through the maze, and was simply luring Rust deeper and deeper into the heart of Carcosa before the final showdown in front of the altar. " I mean, sure, but the maze clearly led to a final room where the confrontation happened, considering rust and marty both found it, so it clearly isn't some crazy maze that only he was able to understand. And why would he need to create some haunting, luring narrative to bring Rust to that final room when Rust is very obviously going to follow him anyway? If Errol had just gone to the end of the maze, Rust would've followed. There's no reason for Errol to have done some silly B-movie "luring" to get Rust to follow. It just felt so cheesy with his voice saying sinister stuff while Rust went room to room. There's no good reason for that to have happened within the story, and it didn't make for good television. Also, nothing about Rust traversing the maze indicated that Errol was just ahead of him, it always had the feeling that his voice rang out throughout the maze, with the reverberating, omnipresent feel that it had. Rust never showed any signs of thinking Errol's voice was an indicator of where to go. To me, it's pretty clear that it was intended to seem like his voice was heard throughout the maze. And claiming the end scene is better because you don't know whether or not they survive, vs the one in the projects where you know their future selves are still around, is insane. The fact that the scene in ep 4 was so insanely tense despite the fact that you could take a step back and realize rust made it out alive just speaks volumes for how captivating and "in the moment" that whole scene was. So if the final scene is tense because you didn't know who would make it out alive, that's just more of a reason why that scene doesn't quite stand up to the previous ones that were captivating without the sense of fear that comes from not knowing the outcome.
Faraudo 03.11.14	Hold your tits man, it was amazing, but not better than Ozymandias.
Underflow 03.11.14	Well, the stakes are actually real in the final confrontation versus the projects stint (not knocking that part, it was amazing, but you undoubtedly know Cohle survives), so, yeah, the chase through Carcosa was definitely more tense.
avonbarksdale221 03.11.14	I didn't say the scene in the maze was better than the one in the projects, ideas just using it as a comparison. The project scene is the best thing I have ever seen accomplished on television. Maybe I am riding the wave of hype, but I definitely think it was on a least the same level as Ozymandias. Breaking Bad has to me always suffered from having limited replay value, whereas I have already watched each True Detective episode bar the finale twice, with equal enjoyment the second time around.
Faraudo 03.11.14	Breaking Bad has a great replay value, specially because of the amount of symbolism on each episode, and the cinematography is also impeccable. I've watched my blu-ray set of the complete series like 5 times, and I've enjoyed it every time. I really think that you are riding the wave of hype, Ozymandias really broke my heart, and brought everything full circle. it even made me feel sorry for Walter. Besides, Cranston's acting when he's crying/talking to Skyler over the phone is totally emmy-worthy. But y'know, to each their own.
avonbarksdale221 03.11.14	Ozymandias also has the benefit of being the emotional climax of a 5 season show. I understand the immense symbolism the show has, but for me at least the experience of watching it diminished significantly after my first viewing. It was a show built on twists, cliffhangers and sheer heart-pounding intesnity, not much of which remained after having already seen the show. It is undoubtedly one of the greatest TV series of all time, its just that for me, its lack of replay value is BrBa's one fundamental flaw. I fully understand that my experience is not your experience or anyone elses for that matter, so more power to you m/
Faraudo 03.11.14	Haha yeah, it's a really subjective matter and I understand were you're coming from as well. But make no mistake, I loved TD's first season, and I think it's one of the best first seasons ever, and LOVED the finale, I got a great sense of closure.
avonbarksdale221 03.11.14	Thank fuck you're a decent dude, so sick of people on here belittling anyone they don't agree with. I just really love discussing this show, and other similar program's. Despite my criticisms, Breaking Bad is still one of my absolute favourite tv shows.
Rowan5215 03.11.14	Watching this
avonbarksdale221 03.11.14	Love you. Ignore my hype and just enjoy it for what it is. And avoid this thread, spoiler minefield in here.
gypsyrick 03.11.14	I really enjoyed the show, and maybe it's just because I started watching it last night and finished today, but I don't understand the hyperbolic praise for a show that lasted 8 episodes. I understand that that's part of the praise, but calling it "the best ever" seems insane to me.
Faraudo 03.11.14	Haha thanks man, and yeah, I was also kinda surprised when I saw that there's still some decent people in here. But speaking of TD, who do you think they'll cast for season 2?
avonbarksdale221 03.11.14	I truly believe it to be one of the greatest seasons of television that I have seen. Other than that, kinda hard to compare an 8 episode show with other series that have lasted 5+ seasons and 60+ episodes. No idea who they'll cast Faraudo, but the creator has eluded to the possibility of a female lead(s) which would be interesting. Im gonna be sad to see Rust and Marty go though :(
Rowan5215 03.11.14	Don't worry I'm looking at my comments only avon but fucking watch Hannibal christ dude
avonbarksdale221 03.11.14	Once I'm finished with the X Files lil nigga
Rowan5215 03.11.14	Only seasons 1-8 remember Where you up to?
Faraudo 03.11.14	Yeahh, I would love to see Marty and Rust one more time. At least a cameo would be great. And i'm with Rowan here, watch Hannibal, we´re getting desperate.
avonbarksdale221 03.11.14	Gotcha. Same as when we last spoke, I've been in full TD mode since then plus I'm reading The Great Gatsby for English. Should be able to burn through most of the season over the weekend though.
Rowan5215 03.11.14	Ah ya geezer you Seriously so excited for you to watch Beyond the Sea like holy balls aaaaaaaah
avonbarksdale221 03.11.14	Better than Ice and Fallen Angel? Cause it will have to be pretty fucking good to eat those two
Rowan5215 03.11.14	Dude those two are tight but Beyond the Sea is the show at its fuckin peak. Easily lives up to the best episodes from the later seasons and on the whole, the later ones give S1 a right kick in the arse
avonbarksdale221 03.11.14	Sheeeeeit that's what I like to hear
Rowan5215 03.11.14	Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeit partner
Rowan5215 03.11.14	IS THAT LESTER IN THE FIRST TD EPISODE
avonbarksdale221 03.11.14	And Brother Mouzone. Now get the fuck off sput and immerse yourself yo
Rowan5215 03.11.14	Haha no way that's sick I'm only watching a maximum of two per night and I just finished one, so I got time for sput nig
avonbarksdale221 03.11.14	You better start asking the right fucking questions. Brother is one of the detectives interviewing Marty and Rust.
Rowan5215 03.11.14	Yeah I got that when you said it dude haha To be honest I'm not a McConaughey fan at all but everything else about it was great
avonbarksdale221 03.11.14	The hell is wrong with you - McConaughey is one of the best actors in the business. He has already received an Oscar this year, and chances are he'll be adding an Emmy for TD shortly. Look past your prejudices yo, his performance in this has been unanimously worshipped.
Rowan5215 03.11.14	OH HE WON AN OSCAR HE MUST BE THE BEST ACTOR OF THE GENERATION No but seriously Woody is 100x better
avonbarksdale221 03.11.14	I'm sorry, and you know I'm not usually one to bash someone for their opinion, but if that's what you really think then you are a fucking idiot.
Rowan5215 03.11.14	Woody is incredible dude, without prejudice. He embodies every character he plays absolutely perfectly.
avonbarksdale221 03.11.14	Woody is fantastic, both of them put on an acting master class. McConaughey has completely turned his career around, from throwaway romcom bullshit to virtuosic character acting. His turns in this, Dallas Buyers Club and Mud are truly outstanding. Forget what you know about MM's sordid past, and instead embrace the McConaussance.
Rowan5215 03.11.14	I'm not judging him based off some throwaway romcom bullshit from like 10 years ago, dude. But he has still never astounded me.
Deathconscious 03.12.14	"Good to see a show actually has the balls to have a 'happy' ending." what?
Deathconscious 03.12.14	the first 3 episodes wowed me, everything after that was great but it lost something that the first 3 had, im not sure what. im somewhat satisfied with the ending, although the whole idea of rust turning into a spiritual guy is fucking retarded to me. but rust headbutting errol while being lifted in the air with a knife in his stomach was fucking intense.
Faraudo 03.12.14	How comes that you were wowed by episodes 1-3, and wasn't wowed by episodes 4-5? Specially the one take 10 minute raid at the end of episode 4.
avonbarksdale221 03.12.14	He doesn't become religious. He lets go of his nihilistic defence mechanism that has been in place since the death of his daughter.
avonbarksdale221 03.12.14	And agreed, 4 and 5 are the best two episodes besides the finale.
jtswope 03.12.14	^^ agreed hard
avonbarksdale221 03.12.14	I really felt that episodes 6 and 7 suffered from losing Marty and especially Rust as narrators. Rust's drunken philosophical musings in the first 5 episodes were one of the best parts of the show. Time is a flat circle, yo
DaveyBoy 03.12.14	Man, I've done well to avoid this thread for the 2 days it has taken me to watch the last 2 episodes. Fantastic series overall & I was totally engrossed by most of the first 5-6 episodes. I was actually a bit disappointed in the way in which the 7th episode was structured (mainly the lack of narration), but felt it was all a satisfactory set-up for the finale. Like others, I'm 50-50 on the finale. Unsure what I was expecting tbh. It was still very good, but I felt the series deserved something even bigger & better. And like TMob, I thought the villain's voice luring MM into the maze was just a tad silly. I think it was supposed to be chilling, but it didn't come off that way to me. Can't wait for Series 2.
Underflow 03.12.14	I think the whole thing could have been narrated if they'd shifted the timeline.
Deathconscious 03.13.14	"How comes that you were wowed by episodes 1-3, and wasn't wowed by episodes 4-5?" id have to watch them again to tell you exactly why, i dont really remember.
ExcentrifugalForz 03.13.14	check Into the Furnace to see an equally gripping Woody performance
Rowan5215 03.13.14	Well I'm not gonna lie that was unsatisfying as fuck
avonbarksdale221 03.13.14	That is a very insightful and well thought out post, thanks for your input :]
Rowan5215 03.14.14	Sorry be fair on me I posted that at like midnight and no-one was on Sputnik so I was hardly going to argue with myself about it was I
avonbarksdale221 03.14.14	All good dude, I'd love to hear your thoughts on what was a pretty polarizing finale; I obviously loved it but can see how others might have been left disappointed
Rowan5215 03.14.14	Well needless to say I was pretty disappointed with how they dropped the whole Yellow King/Carcosa thing (my favourite part of the show) completely and utterly It was like the first six episodes were this awesome mix of Breaking Bad and the X-Files and then the last two were any old CSI show you'd see on channel seven Even if I take the finale by itself, not in the context of the season, its still not great in my eyes. Errol was creepy as fuck yeah but the way they found him out was absolutely retarded (he painted a house green once = he had green ears = we now know his exact location? wtf) and the climax of the episode occurred like halfway in which left the rest of the episode to just draaaaag out
avonbarksdale221 03.14.14	Damn dude, the scenes with Rust and Marty in the hospital were some of the best in the whole show, that emotion! As for Carcosa, that was the maze were the cult sacrificed the kids. And with the Yellow King, my interpretation was that it was an idea rather than a person; the altar upon which the sacrifices was made was tinged yellow, so I sort of assumed that that might have been what is known as the "yellow king". Agreed that the way they found him was a bit of a stretch, but I'll chalk that up to detectives intuition ;)
Rowan5215 03.14.14	Woody brought the emotion hard throughout the whole series but there were much more emotional moments, and done better, than the final ones I didn't realise Carcosa was the maze at all, and even if you're right about the Yellow King, they've left way too much up to conjecture. I love me an ambiguous ending for sure and a little bit should always be left up to the audience's imagination, but in this case it seemed like they literally threw away that sort of vague horror-story thing they had going and focused on the facts which wasn't what I wanted. In short, the payoff didn't live up to the build up at all
avonbarksdale221 03.14.14	Dude, when Rust breaks down talking about his daughter, sheeeit I nearly started crying, easily the most emotion moment in the series for me. And when Woody was surrounded by his family and he keeps saying "I'm fine..." then slowly breaks down ...fuk.
Rowan5215 03.14.14	Most emotional moment for me was when Marty came home and his wife was gone When he picks up that note sitting on the briefcase and then slowly breaks down.... FUK Moments like that are why I still stand by Woody >>> Matthew 100%
avonbarksdale221 03.14.14	He did that perfectly. Loved that there was no bullshit voice-over of what she wrote - Woody's reaction said more than words ever could. Still, MM > anyone and everyone ever. His monologues were probably the best parts about the show, besides the project scene in ep 4, the shoot-out at Reggie Ledoux's compound in ep 5 and the Carcosa/hospital scenes in ep 8.
Rowan5215 03.14.14	Past Rust >>>>> present Rust Past Rust actually seemed somewhat human and allow Matty to stretch his range a bit Apart from the final scene where he talked about his daughter and all that, present Rust was a generic cynical, jaded, world-weary character you could've picked out of any cop show with eyes closed
avonbarksdale221 03.14.14	Opinions like that and you should walk hand-in-hand to extinction with anyone else who is deluded enough to believe that shit. In Rust we trust.
Rowan5215 03.14.14	Ahh shut yer gob he's not that good
avonbarksdale221 03.14.14	brb mainlining the secret truth to the universe
Rowan5215 03.14.14	Brb gonna copy-paste philosophical rubbish from Tool fansites and give it to Rust as dialogue
avonbarksdale221 03.14.14	c'mon dawg rust's lines are a little deeper than that
Rowan5215 03.14.14	Not really. The "deepness" isn't the issue here. Ask a Tool fan what the meaning/concept of Lateralus is and they can go deeper into the human psychology than basically any other human on the planet, but the problem is its all pretentious rubbish On another note, Errol wasn't even tall, or a giant, in any way! Just another example of the payoff not living up to the build up.
avonbarksdale221 03.14.14	he was like twice the size of Rust! I don't find much of what Rust says to be anywhere near pretentious. I found he provided a lot of insight into the "human condition" and hit a lot of nails on the head regarding religion etc. I dunno, maybe I'm more philosophical/cynical than you are
Rowan5215 03.14.14	Twice the size lengthways maybe LOL I'm pretty cynical and as you know I'm not religious either To an extent I agreed with him about the religion being a delusion and all that But the "no human being is capable of love" spiel was just trite And the same with the "time is a flat circle if you view it from outside our universe" rubbish
avonbarksdale221 03.14.14	the time is a flat circle monologue is legendary
TMobotron 03.14.14	Yeah how is Rust's dialogue pretentious? I mean did you honestly feel like his character was saying those things for some other reason besides that actually being how he felt? He never even opened up to Marty until Marty prodded him with questions. That's not how a pretentious person operates. The stereotypical Tool dialogue is often pretentious because a lot of it is teenagers or dumb metalheads who think they've found some deeper understanding of the world and they feel a need to express their supposed superiority. Rust is just a genuinely jaded person, who's smart and brutally honest enough to eloquently capture his pessimistic views on the world. It felt pretty real and pretty far removed from any potential for pretension to me. The Tool comparison is actually quite absurd in my opinion.
Rowan5215 03.14.14	All in the game >>>> time is a flat circle
Rowan5215 03.14.14	Okay pretentious is the wrong word but nevertheless I stand by that claim Rust was obviously a very intelligent character with some pessimistic ideals, but most of those ideals have no effect on how his character actually ACTS throughout the show, its just them trying to cram in some philosophy into the show Take, for example, the time is a flat circle monologue. That monologue has no effect on the events of the show whatsoever, and it doesn't influence Rust's actions at all; if I remember correctly he never even refers to this belief after he relays it to the two black cops (who, by the way, were just another unnecessary part of the show that built up to nothing). Its simply there for the sake of being there, for the writers to flaunt how clever Rust (and by extension, themselves) is/are. I don't want to give off the impression that I dislike this show because that's not even close to being correct, but it has a fundamental flaw in that so many of its aspects are unnecessary and simply there for the sake of being there Okay, /rant
TMobotron 03.14.14	But I totally agree with your opinion that the finale was unsatisfying, and also would go on to say plenty more about it, especially that moments of it felt like cheesy formulaic television like CSI and was very different from the feel that the season started with (and succeeded with) that made me think the show was on a higher level than almost all other television.
avonbarksdale221 03.14.14	TM bringing the anwswers in a far more articulate way than I did, cheers nig. I found Rust's dialogue to be some of the most engaging I have ever seen on TV.
TMobotron 03.14.14	Haha no dude, not a rant at all, I love to talk about the negatives of the show (even if I disagree with you on a few points) especially because it seems like a lot of people who enjoy it seem to think it's flawless. Give me a second to address your points.
Rowan5215 03.14.14	"especially that moments of it felt like cheesy formulaic television like CSI and was very different from the feel that the season started with (and succeeded with) that made me think the show was on a higher level than almost all other television." I literally said that exact same thing in this thread before so yeah fair play brother
avonbarksdale221 03.14.14	Watch the show again and you'll see the theme of "time is a flat circle" be addressed more, at least symbolically. For instance, the camera shot when Rust tells Dewalt (?) to freeze during the shoot out in ep 5 is exactly the same as when he tells Errol to freeze in the finale. Similarly, the two black cops that interview Rust and Marty will face the exact same perils and bureacractic bullshit that Rust and Marty did as they likely follow up the case and so on. Its just like one of the major themes in The Wire. The game is a cycle, destined to be repeated again and again for all of eternity.
Rowan5215 03.14.14	I noticed the repetition of the "freeze" shot yeah but I hardly think that's symbolic, seems more like coincidence to me. I mean if time really was a flat circle then wouldn't Errol have run away and been blown up by a mine?
avonbarksdale221 03.14.14	shit you've debunked the theory straight up, guess they should've had you on the case huh
Rowan5215 03.14.14	Yeah dude I'm a fucking genius Plus "Similarly, the two black cops that interview Rust and Marty will face the exact same perils and bureacractic bullshit that Rust and Marty did as they likely follow up the case and so on" How so? They solved the case and killed the culprit
TMobotron 03.14.14	I think you're looking a little too directly for a connection between his dialogue and his actions. The "time is a flat circle" monologue is certainly in part there to exist by itself. It arguably flaunts his cleverness, but I don't see it as the writers flaunting themselves. I think if the writers have created a clever character, it's okay to utilize him for an isolated display of that, because it's pretty entertaining. It could be over-used though, for sure. I don't think it was on TD. That being said, I don't think it's unrelated to the other events of the show (which is different from it affecting the events of the show, which I don't think is necessary). I'm ignoring the more obvious connections like Rust referring to this later because I assume you mean the whole philosophical approach to it was unnecessary. For one thing, the philosophical viewpoint gives you some insight into a side of his character that we haven't really seen. But the thing that makes that scene (and a lot of his dialogue from the interview) interesting is when Marty tells the interviewers that if they thought they were reading Rust, he was really reading them. Just makes me wonder how genuine the scene was. Did he really get the impulse to explain that to them, or was he doing it just to project some idea of his current state of mind onto the detectives? I actually agree that some aspects of the show genuinely seemed like they existed only to serve some later purpose, which they never lived up to. I just don't think that a scene which works so well by itself (which this did, despite having possible deeper meanings you could associate with outside/later scenes) would ever fall into that category. I think the most obvious actual example of this flaw in the show is Marty's daughter displaying some frightening behavior that might indicate she's somehow corrupted, but nothing ever following up on that.
TMobotron 03.14.14	I gotta say though, I don't get how you could actually not see the "time is a flat circle" concept as a big theme to the show. It's actually directly addressed by Rust at at least one obvious point.
avonbarksdale221 03.14.14	They killed Errol, but didn't manage to solve the mystery of the "sprawl" and apprehend any of the other members of the cult. Although my interpretation is that the cult hasn't been operating for a long time, and that Errol had been carrying on the killings himself. If not with this exact case though, the game stays the same as it were. Just like Marty continues to remain oblivious to his family and cheat on Maggie (also, DAT ASS), most of humanity are destined to repeat the same mistakes again and again.
zakalwe 03.14.14	Seen the first episode. What fucked me off was rather than sat there describing the corpse, going to bars asking who she was blah blah blah. Why didn't they just fingerprint the body?? Basics! True detective my arse.
Rowan5215 03.14.14	Well ok I've only seen each episode once so I may not remember times when he addressed it again, fair point there I agree that the philosophical viewpoint that runs throughout the show does make it far more interesting and puts a different spin on things, but by the same token at times it seems to dominate the show and leave other events in the background In regards to Marty's daughter, I thought that had a very clear purpose. We're supposed to see Marty's gradual but definite failing of morality throughout the show and that culminates in a) his wife leaving him and b) him hitting Audrey in that scene Its just background to his character development, and as a character Marty developed wonderfully throughout the show and Rust did not so much
Rowan5215 03.14.14	zak knows people
zakalwe 03.14.14	Going to stick with it because it's intriguing and I love Woody 'spud head' Harrelson.
avonbarksdale221 03.14.14	zak is rust I don't know how you can insinuate that Rust didn't develop as a character as much as Marty, his "the light is winning" speech clearly indicates that his character has come full circle. Even in the 7th episode when he and Marty are reunited you can see how he has changed.
Rowan5215 03.14.14	Yeah Woody is the main reason to watch this tbh
TMobotron 03.14.14	I actually think Rust's lack of development was an important point though, and one that plays into the "time is a flat circle" idea. I think that flat circle concept that Rust believes seems to dominate his mind. He claims that bad things will just keep happening in the world because time keeps repeating itself. I think he's content to not progress/develop as a person because he thinks it's pointless. He also has such a pessimistic view on the world because he can't possibly believe it will ever truly get better if he believes time is a flat circle. That's why his optimistic view on light vs dark is so important at the end. His role in the case repeated itself - go after bad guys, catch some bad guys, more (greater) bad guys remain uncaught, repeat. By altering his view on that, he's actually the one that proved time is NOT a flat circle.
Rowan5215 03.14.14	Yeah but here's the thing, Rust was the same character for seven episodes and took a near-death/coma experience to change Marty's character development was constant, and much more realistic and believable and therefore moving
Rowan5215 03.14.14	Hmm interesting point TMobotron you've argued this well But in any case, Lester should've been in more than one episode and therefore I'm right
TMobotron 03.14.14	"What fucked me off was rather than sat there describing the corpse, going to bars asking who she was blah blah blah. Why didn't they just fingerprint the body?? Basics! True detective my arse." Dude, there are multiple people on the scene, why do these two specifically have to be the ones looking for prints? They're simply not involved with that process. We're seeing one side of the story, just because something wasn't shown doesn't mean that you should assume it didn't happen. Also, you're insane and making a big mistake by being in this thread after only seeing one episode. And MM as Rust is IMO better than Woody as Marty. I don't mean their characters (because Rust is clearly the one who's supposed to be captivating and Marty the subtler role), I just think Matty destroyed the role. Both are awesome though, and it really shouldn't be a competition. They're both reasons to watch the show.
avonbarksdale221 03.14.14	Yeah Tmob, great analysis.
TMobotron 03.14.14	But yes Rowan, I don't disagree - Marty's development was more natural and he was a more interesting character to watch progress after episode 5 probably (which isn't a flaw in the Rust character, it just speaks highly of Marty).
Rowan5215 03.14.14	Don't pay attention to zak he's a joker The thing is Matty can nail the aloof, mysterious character with the dangerous past (which by the way was another flaw in the show - he way too conveniently had knowledge of how to do things like break into Tuttle's house without being caught and convenient connections in exactly the right biker gang that he could pull out at any given moment, but I digress) and Matty can play that part well. But take, for example, my favourite scene that I mentioned earlier, when Marty comes home to find his wife has left him. The gradual break down in his face as he reads the letter, the way he goes from barely holding it together when he calls his wife's dad to absolutely losing his shit when he calls the girl he was cheating with - everything about that scene is just so perfect, so moving, and so confronting. And I've never, NEVER seen Matty accomplish something so simplistic and powerful as that scene, or any other scene which showed Marty at his lowest. That's why.
TMobotron 03.14.14	"which by the way was another flaw in the show - he way too conveniently had knowledge of how to do things like break into Tuttle's house without being caught and convenient connections in exactly the right biker gang that he could pull out at any given moment, but I digress" I totally get how you could criticize the show for this. But outside of shows like The Wire that tell a great story through the relatively standard police force, I don't think there's much of a point. It's just that the reason you're following this fictional detective partnership is because they have intriguing aspects like connections with biker gangs and dark pasts, etc. I get that you could look at it and think that Rust's connection to the gang is just too easy for them, but the way I see it, the only reason we're following the story is because Rust's connection MAKES IT a story to follow, and I think that's realistic for any TV show. It's only the TV shows where the leads over and over are able to coincidentally find some connection they have that helps them in the case where it's a problem (and I think his ability to break into Tuttle's house comes from his intelligence and his history with the gang, so it's not a separate "coincidence" to me).
TMobotron 03.14.14	But IDK, Matt isn't supposed to be the emotional character here, so I think it's unfair to compare them on that level within this show. I think Matt is a fucking amazing actor though, and one who has completely turned his image around for the better. But IDK, it's just a matter of opinion who you prefer. But you do think both leads are great, right?
Rowan5215 03.14.14	I'm not sure what you mean by "Rust's connection MAKES IT a story to follow" Are you saying that the source of the story being interesting is the fact that Rust has a mysterious past? I' sure I'm misunderstanding you but if so I disagree strongly, I found the hints at a larger/darker picture with the Yellow King + Marty's character development the most interesting aspects I get that Woody is the "emotional" character and Matty's not, and I think at the source that's the reason I prefer the former. I mean, if you imagine if they had reversed roles, I don't think Matty could have even come close to nailing the simplistic visceral emotion that Woody displays, whereas I think Woody could pull off an aloof and mysterious character; maybe not as well as Matty does, but not far off. Woody's just more diverse and more interesting. But yes, both leads are great.
TMobotron 03.14.14	Sorry, I kind of knew my point was a bit confusing when I said that. And it's kind of a weird point I'm making, admittedly. But let me try to explain as best I can. My point is just this: you wouldn't watch Dexter and see him use his Miami Metro Homicide job to track down someone to kill and think "Oh, sure, he just HAPPENS to work for Miami Metro", because that's the whole premise of the show. What I'm saying about TD is that the premise is that Rust is a cop with a dark/corrupt past tracking a case that now has connections to that past. So in the same sense, saying he just HAPPENS (coincidentally) to have connections to the case isn't the same criticism that you could have for a detective that just solves every case that's thrown at him by coincidentally having some lucky connection. He only has that initial connection because that's the whole reason we have to follow these characters beyond just finding some case that never gets solved. Now, I get that this is kind of a weird gray area, and I actually agree with you to some extent (like my previous post - The Wire is an example where there's no sense of coincidence at all). But beyond that connection that his character (I think) is meant to have from the start to tell the whole story, I don't really think that coincidental storytelling happens again. Umm... Did this even make any more sense than my last post? Lol, maybe not. I swear I have a good point here, I just have trouble transcribing it properly! :-)
Rowan5215 03.14.14	No I think I get what you mean now. Its not a coincidence that he has all these skills because the reason he has all these skills is the reason he's on the case. Makes sense.
TMobotron 03.14.14	Well not just the reason he's on the case but the reason why a show was made after him. To do the Dexter comparison again, he's not on Miami Metro because he's a serial killer or vice versa - it's just that his being on both is the reason a show was made out of it - because that's what's interesting (and obviously it's not a real event, I just mean the concept that he was on both is the reason a show was made of it). So what I'm saying is that the concept of True Detective (think of it as a selling point - something they may have pitched to HBO when trying to find a buyer) is that this is a cop who ends up on a case that he's connected to because he has a dark background with this gang. Sure, if Rust was a real person, his connection with this gang would maybe be a coincidence. But wouldn't Dexter's job at Miami Metro be a coincidence, or at least a rare occurrence? And people don't criticize it for that, they just accept it as the show's premise. My point is that shows aren't made out of ordinary things. There needs to be something, coincidental or not, that sets it above daily occurrences. And I could see why people would think that making a show off of that is weak, but honestly almost every show made today is based off of some sort of unordinary premise, which I personally think is okay. Coincidences happen all the time in real life - and they often lead to very interesting things. It's only unrealistic if coincidences happen all the time in a show - like if a character consistently solves cases because he/she happens to have some connection to someone involved with the case.
Rowan5215 03.14.14	I know what you mean, definitely. I just think that's not the main focus of the show. If I were selling this to HBO, I wouldn't pitch it as "a cop who's connected to the case because he has a gang background", at least not as the main selling point For ME, the main selling point would be "an effective and in-depth look at the lives of two police officers as they investigate a disturbing case with undertones that hint at something darker WHICH ARE NEVER FUCKING REALISED" okay ignore the last part but you get my point
TMobotron 03.14.14	Haha yeah, I get your point. Like I said, I mostly agree with you. But I can usually concede to one "coincidence" under the assumption that this is the reason we're following this story. If coincidences happen left and right, then I have a problem.
Thane 03.14.14	i'm pretty sure i read that Nic Pizzolatto spent like two years writing the scripts for the first two episodes, and when they started shooting he wasn't sure how it was going to end. i guess that explains the rushed feel of the later episodes.
TheRubberbandMan 03.14.14	Wow, you like to overrate a lot I see avon. This show was completely overblown and hyped for a finale that quite simply did not deliver.
CoolCalmJoe 03.14.14	Finale was a bit disappointing for me, except for the maze scene. Seemed to me like it held a completely different vibe from the rest of the series. Still liked it though, and kinda happy they ended it on an upbeat note, otherwise the show woulda felt like it was taking itself way too seriously to me. If it ended on a dark note, woulda been cool if Rust and Marty just died with the bad guy and no one ever knew what happened to them.
TheRubberbandMan 03.14.14	The series devolved into everything it promised not to be. How unimportant and uninteresting they ended up making the killer, and the maze scene was fine but it could have been so much better if the weight of both characters had felt equal.
Underflow 03.14.14	Actually Pizzolato approached the series with the ending in his mind first.
Thane 03.14.14	yeah, them being outside the hospital etc, but not how the case itself would end
Faraudo 03.14.14	It is a bit overrated yeah, it goes to the extent of saying that McConaughey is better than Cranston. But still an amazing show.
Funeralopolis 03.27.14	Just finished the show, god damn that was some boring shit. Don't know how I managed to make it through.
ButteryBiscuitBass 05.09.14	happy bday
sixdegrees 02.02.20	not going to read this thread until ive seen it
Valkoor952 02.02.20	Why would you bump a 6 year old thread Also this is the most 10/10 TV season if there ever was one
sixdegrees 02.02.20	I just started watching this show in december 2019 but I havent finished it yet also I need to renew my HBO subscription
Valkoor952 02.02.20	Good Watch it, then watch it again and then again One of the richest TV shows in terms of replayability, you catch so many things on consecutive watches and it just gets better.
sixdegrees 02.02.20	those are the best kind of shows really heard season 2 is controversial though