Rik VII: Brandon Sanderson Spoiler Talk

Rik VII 03.28.18	Ok!
DinosaurJones 03.28.18	I've only read Stormlight... so I should probably stay out of here until I read the rest of the stuff :[
artiswar 03.28.18	The one thing that bugged me in Oathbringer was Jasnah almost killing Renarin. It felt like just manufactured tension. I get that seeing the future is considered very bad, but she's a fucking heretic! That's like the point of her character. She would question that, not kill family first, ask questions later... So that felt like some lazy writing to me.
Rik VII 03.28.18	Yeah, I can see that, but I thought it fit her utilitaristic character trades (like, kill what has to be killed to guarantee the safety of mankind). I also thought that it was an amazing moment how this one decision of her was the first of a row of resolving things happening after sooo much bad shit. It was so ... liberating.
theBoneyKing 03.28.18	Well, she didn’t kill family; I think that’s the point. Plus, it’s not just the religion that says telling the future is bad, it’s directly related to Odium, and as we now know Renarin’s spren was corrupted by Odium, so from a certain perspective maybe Jasna should have killed him. I don’t think there’s anything lazy there.
theBoneyKing 03.28.18	So, what trait did Moash steal from Jezrien with that knife?
artiswar 03.28.18	I always suspected that The Night Mother would be a very important character behind the scenes with her own plots and machinations, so it was a bit disappointing to see that she's just a higher spren like Stormfather and not all that important. Although finally meeting Cultivation made up for that.
TheSpirit 03.28.18	is this... fantasy?
Rik VII 03.28.18	Agreed about the Nightwatcher and Cultivation. Now we've seen 5 Shards.
Rik VII 03.28.18	Yes, it is. Things are going to get a bit nerdy around here lol
DinosaurJones 03.28.18	I felt/feel like the Shallan/Adolin/Kaladin love triangle was actually done very well. Nothing felt shoehorned, and I'm usually not a big fan of romance in books. The outcome (so far) felt right, though I definitely like Kaladin more than Adolin.
artiswar 03.28.18	I know that's a trait from Odium, but Jasnah also knows that humans are the void bringers and originally came of Odium... I don't know, that part just bugged me, I would never buy that she would almost just kill her cousin while he's crying on his knees without a conversation first. But to each their own.
artiswar 03.28.18	Agreed on the 'love triangle' Dino. I was shocked at how tastefully and subtly it was all done. No contrived romance angst to speak of.
theBoneyKing 03.28.18	Rik, what do you mean we’ve “seen” 5 Shards? Cause if you count things like the Letters we have heard from more. Plus while we haven’t directly seen them we know a lot more Shards.
Rik VII 03.28.18	Yeah, I liked the way it handled. Though I didn't really like how Shallan turned out in this book. She annoyed me a lot of the time. Edit: @Boney: Yeah, we know 10 Shards (and the names of the vessels of 9), but we haven't ever "seen" them all through the eyes of a POV. Those are only those of Roshar and Scadrial.
theBoneyKing 03.28.18	Well, in a way we’ve seen 6, since Harmony is now considered its own Shard.
artiswar 03.28.18	Tbh I loved Shallan's breakdown in this book, and the way each of her personas became individuals was fascinating. It was almost like a fantasy take on schizophrenia. And her conversation with Hoid in Kholinar..... mmmm mmmm mmmmmmmm.
theBoneyKing 03.28.18	art, I think that’s exactly what it was supposed to feel like! In the acknowledgements of the book Sanderson mentioned that he got advising on a certain mental illness when writing the book and I’m pretty sure that’s what he was referring to.
Rik VII 03.28.18	He tackled personality disorder with Shallan and depression with Kaladin, yes
theBoneyKing 03.28.18	Sorry, I meant personality disorder not schizophrenia yeah. The Wheel of Time did have an interesting take on schizophrenia though!
artiswar 03.28.18	Can we talk about Dalinar..? Whenever the Champion With 9 Shadows was brought up, I couldn't help but wonder who that could be. If it was a new character who was just all-powerful, it would have been so lame. That it was actually Dalinar who would be Odium's Champion was SO GOOD. His arc in this book was just tremendous. 'You cannot have my pain'
Rik VII 03.28.18	That sentence. That moment. I think yeah, Dalinar was going to be the champion but now it looks like Moash is gonna be it.
artiswar 03.28.18	Speaking of Moash, he actually had my single favourite moment in the entire book. After he kills Elokhar, the way he just kicks the shard blade away like it's a piece of junk just hit me really hard. Such a contrast to how Amaram massacred his own squad just to get one. It spoke volumes for where Moash's head is at.
theBoneyKing 03.28.18	Yeah Brandon is building Moash up to have an awesome (and probably terrifying) character arc
Rik VII 03.28.18	Yeah, Moash is a very different kind of antagonist. He's basically what Odium stands for in a nutshell, and I'm actually thinking that Odium probably has a very similar backstory to his. At least that would explain his own hatred. Moash is mostly built up to be kind of an "evil Kaladin" just like Taravangian is an "evil Dalinar" which is an interesting thing.
theBoneyKing 03.28.18	Well, since the Shard’s Intent morphs the motivations of the person holding it, I don’t know that the backstory or Rayse will have that much to it.
Rik VII 03.28.18	Yeah, it will. A person can only hold a Shard if it fits to its character trades to an extent. Someone who only seeks to destroy could never hold Preservation. So Rayse was a hateful person. He also started killing other vessels before he was changed too much (shortly after the Shattering).
DinosaurJones 03.28.18	The reveal of Odium having been preparing Dalinar as his champion, then Dalinar's rejection was absolutely perfect. The slow build of Moash is also very intriguing... the moment where he killed Elhokar, and kicked away the Shard was good, but the Bridge Four salute was just the icing on the cake. Also, even though it wasn't explored much, the reveal of Teft as a Radiant put a big grin on my face as well. And Szeth switching alliances, and his odd relationship with "sword-nimi" and the sword itself... AGH, there's just so much to gush over.
artiswar 03.28.18	Not to mention Szeth and Lift being buddies! That was too cool for words.
Rik VII 03.28.18	The whole finale was such an amazing series of events. Everything about it was golden. I loved how Sanderson managed to take all hope for everyone. I mean, how could they have possibly put up with the things Odium had prepared, that was ... the most nerve-wrecking moment in the series so far. But then the twist and how everything was resolved, it was just beautiful. Great final battle, hardly ever enjoyed myself that much while reading.
theBoneyKing 03.28.18	Yeah, Szeth with Nightblood is basically the best thing ever.
DinosaurJones 03.28.18	Amaram transforming into some sort of crazy hell beast reminded me of the Soulsborne series as well.
artiswar 03.28.18	One of the things that holds Sanderson back is his architect approach to writing. His plot progression often feels too clean and orderly compared to say Game Of Thrones where the world feels like a living breathing chaotic thing and anything can happen. So I was very impressed that the whole middle part of Oathbringer is just shit going completely off the rails with no hope in sight. Also Kaladin going catatonic in the battle for Kholinar was so beautifully done. That felt like such a true Kaladin moment.
Rik VII 03.28.18	@Amaram thing: Ha, that was weird. It's a thing I noticed while reading that ... everything weird happening tends to be explained by "It was an Unmade" (weird name also). @Kaladin break-down: As if it hadn't been enough breaking him for the whole duration of Way of Kings. But it felt the right thing to do. Battle of Kholinar was so much shorter than I had expected, yet just as intense.
DinosaurJones 03.28.18	The Kaladin moment in Kholinar was brutal. He was finally coming around to the idea that though he can do his best to save his friends from getting killed, he can't save them all. But then watching separate groups of his friends slaughter each other. Damn, so well done.
Rik VII 03.28.18	I noticed an increase of brutality in this book. There were moments, especially in Dalinar's prequel story, that felt like Sanderson wanted to prove that he can be gritty and cruel. I mean it fit the occasion, but it's something that I noticed. Oh, and while I'm at it, Young Dalinar was amazing. Such a terrible person.
artiswar 03.28.18	I just noticed the album... Does it have any relation to Stormlight? Or just a coincidence.
Rik VII 03.28.18	It's an orchestra project that was crowd-funded some time last year I think. It's pretty basic stuff, listened to it like once ... I think it's on Spotify. Doesn't really feel that much like Roshar though, more like just some movie soundtrack. So yeah, it's based off Way of Kings.
artiswar 03.28.18	I didn't feel like Sanderson was trying to prove he can be gritty, I just think the story called for more violence this time. I mean, a chunk of this book is flashbacks to when Dalinar was a Thrill-craving tyrant.
DinosaurJones 03.28.18	It did a great job at establishing why he was so feared and respected though... throughout the first two books, there were so many references to the Blackthorn, but it was never really explored. Even when it was, it was heroic moments, like when he saved Elhokar from the chasmfiend. The flashbacks of him as basically a monster were pretty insane, yeah.
artiswar 03.28.18	It's insane to me that in the first book Dalinar felt like such a fleshed out character even though we were missing like his entire backstory. Also it's weird that this was supposed to be Szeth's book, not Dalinar's. I have no clue how that would have worked honestly.
DinosaurJones 03.28.18	I think it's interesting that (at least for now), the next book is going to focus on Eshonai, since, uh.... she dead. Though Oathbringer did open up from her POV, that was before we knew for sure. I guess it's supposed to focus on both Venli & Eshonai.
Rik VII 03.28.18	Yes, the present parts will focus on Venli and the flashback chapters on Eshonai. We'll see how that turns out, since both are not nearly as interesting as the other main characters we had yet imo. Just thinking that the fifth book will focus on Szeth makes me certain that I will love it. He's one of my favorites.
theBoneyKing 03.28.18	Brandon has been saying for a long time that the flashback characters to not need to be alive for their given books, but I do think you’re right that book 4 will probably focus on Venli and Eshonai’s history.
DinosaurJones 03.28.18	Agreed @ Rik that I don't found Venli/Eshonai as interesting as the other characters... well, Venli, at least. I liked Eshonai. We'll see how it goes though.
Rik VII 03.28.18	"Brandon has been saying for a long time that the flashback characters to not need to be alive for their given books" I still wonder if he only killed off Eshonai to show this ... Edit: Yeah, Eshonai had some really great moments, but she's never had enough time to develop the depth of, say Dalinar and Kaladin. So those will be tough competition for her.
theBoneyKing 03.28.18	I’m reasonably sure that Jasnah will also die before her flashback book. Just a hunch.
theBoneyKing 03.28.18	It will be weird to have a dead/non-focal character as the flashback character though, given how much the flashbacks were interweaved into the present narrative in the books so far (especially in Oathbringer).
Rik VII 03.28.18	That is sooo far off though (maybe 7th or 8th book), so it could be true but it's impossible to say anything about it yet. Taln will be interesting though. That might be the last or second to last one. But well, he's been shifting these things around all the time so nothing's safe to say at this point.
artiswar 03.28.18	Surprised so many people like Eshonai and Venli. I liked Eshonai a lot (weird that she just kind of died off-page) but I found Venli extremely annoying in Words Of Radiance. I find her much more interesting now that she's a lot more developed. It's really cool that she's the only Singer Radiant now and has a Fused trapped in her gemheart. My fav thing about her is her unique relationship with the spren who communicates only through rhythms. I wonder what all that is about.
theBoneyKing 03.28.18	Some serious shit’s gonna go down when the Fused find out about Venli.
Rik VII 03.28.18	Anyone here read The Bands of Mourning? I wasn't too big on the last two Wax & Wayne novels, but that one was pretty packed with Cosmere relevant stuff, at least compared to other non-Stormlight books. (Also, I'm still waiting for the Nalthis star map + essay to be released online which Sanderson said he'd probably do soon.)
theBoneyKing 03.28.18	Yeah I’ve read it, I need to reread it though as I kind of forgot a lot of stuff. It was great though, I like all the Era 2 books. So far I think the most cosmere aware thing that’s been released is Secret History. Also the overviews of a bunch of the star systems and planets written by Khriss that are in Arcanum Unbounded.
Rik VII 03.28.18	Yes, Secret History was a major thing. Basically like a look behind the curtain that's still maintained for all the other works. But since there are people in this thread who don't know it, I'm going to keep it vague. (It's also the story that clarifies that a Shard needs to fit its vessel in the first place.) Arcanum Unbounded in general is the most upfront the Cosmere has been yet. The hardcover version I have doesn't have the star map of the whole thing, just the single systems (bar Nalthis, of course), but that one also bears some interesting implications regarding the star signs.
theBoneyKing 03.28.18	Have you read the White Sand books? Currently I think they’re the only (published) cosmere stories I haven’t read.
Rik VII 03.28.18	I have read the first volume of the graphic novel, and the preview of the second one (I think it's the first two chapters). I'm not really sold on them yet, which is why I haven't bought the second one yet to keep up. So yeah, that one's the only thing I haven't read. Do you have a favorite Cosmere novella?
theBoneyKing 03.28.18	In terms of story, The Emperor’s Soul is definitely my favorite cosmere novella, though I guess from a certain perspective I “like” Secret History more if only for all the cosmere stuff. But realistically Emperor’s Soul yeah, mind you it’s been a while since I read it but I love the slower and more philosophical nature of it compared to the other cosmere stories. To be fair though, I don’t think there’s a single cosmere story that I don’t like at least a little.
Rik VII 03.28.18	Yeah, I also like them all, they're stunningly consistent. Also agreed about Emperor's Soul. It's really an oddball in the greater scheme, considering how nearly all of the story takes place in just one room (totally impossible to imagine this for other Cosmere stories). I have a personal fondness for Shadows for Silence. The darker tone of the story was a welcome change and I liked how the story took place over a very short time span. Threnody also seems like the most mysterious planet in the Cosmere yet, and I love its backstory and the overall atmosphere ... And yes, obviously Secret History is the most important novella yet, but on the other hand it's kinda unfair to compare it to the other ones since it builds on the back of a whole trilogy.
theBoneyKing 03.28.18	Yeah, in itself Secret History is not a very interesting or well-constructed story but it’s enjoyable for other reasons. Shadows For Silence is great yeah, I really want to find out more about what’s going on on Threnody with Cognitive Shadows and such, it could definitely have some pretty big implications for the whole cosmere.
Rik VII 03.28.18	Threnody is just my thing, I like so much about it, like the fact that it's been severely damaged by the consequences of a battle between gods thousands of years ago (I like these "very bad thing happened a looong time ago and you can still see the consequences" things, so the Cosmere is basically made for me), or all the planets of its system being named after different kinds of dirges ... except for the big planet far out with the name Purity. Sanderson confirmed that the theme naming of the planets has something to do with something that happened there, so maybe the death of Uli Da. He also said that there will most likely be a novel set on that planet, but that one's far off. It will also be completely independent from the Silence story and he said that it's going to be grim. That will be interesting.
DinosaurJones 03.29.18	What should I get as my next Sanderson work then? I'm going probably tomorrow to get a book or two, so where should I go from the Stormlight Archive?
theBoneyKing 03.29.18	If you want another series, read Mistborn. If you’d prefer a stand-alone, go with Warbreaker. Elantris is great too but Warbreaker has some more explicit ties to Stormlight so that should be interesting.
DinosaurJones 03.29.18	I'll probably snag Warbreaker and the first Mistborn book then. Huzzah!
Rik VII 03.29.18	Good choices! I'm a little bored right now and I figured it would be convinient to have it here for reference, so this is the chronology of the Cosmere works as of now: White Sand (graphic novel series) Elantris Emperor's Soul (novella) Mistborn Original Trilogy Shadows for Silence (novella, this one's not quite certain yet) Warbreaker Stormlight Mistborn Era 2 Sixth of the Dusk (novella)
theBoneyKing 03.29.18	Given that we don’t have much indication of how much time actually spans here (aside from the one between the Mistborn eras, though iirc Brandon has said everything so far has been within a ~500 year span, excluding Sixth of the Dusk and maybe White Sand) I wonder if there’s a chance that Stormlight arc 2 will take place after Mistborn Era 2. Granted it’s only going to be 15 years later but that could be enough. That also has implications for what sort of things Hoid has his hands on on Sel in Mistborn Era 2.
Rik VII 03.29.18	Yes, it's confirmed it will, but I didn't include Stormlight 2nd half because it doesn't exist yet. But yeah, that's one of the reasons why Last Metal will be super important for the Cosmere
artiswar 03.30.18	I haven't read most of his stuff and I don't really care about the Cosmere truthfully, I just think the first Mistborn book was genius and his Stormlight series is really good so far. I think he's barely a top 10 fantasy writer but I'm still dying for a sequel to Oathbringer. I'm pretty invested in that story after like 10 billion pages.
theBoneyKing 03.30.18	That’s fair, though the more you read into the cosmere the more interesting it gets. A lot of the information we know doesn’t even come from the books themselves but rather from things Brandon’s said in Q&As
loulou 04.02.18	Call me crazy but I prefer the original mistborn trilogy than the stormlight archive.
Rik VII 04.03.18	I'll always insist that Stormlight is the more well-written and better crafted piece of art all in all, but Mistborn has a very special place in my heart and some of my all time favorite characters (Kelsier and Sazed, to be precise), so you definitely won't see me argue against that. I think Mistborn has a certain charme in its setting that's hard to imitate, even though Stormlight has way more depth.
theBoneyKing 04.03.18	They're very different stories, so I can totally understand why one would prefer Mistborn to Stormlight. Mistborn is much "simpler" story (not that there's anything wrong with that). Even I will concede that sometimes Stormlight can have a frustratingly high learning curve with too little being revealed. But at the same time I love how complex it is, how much more depth of history there is built into the narrative.
artiswar 04.03.18	The first Mistborn novel is superior to anything in the Starlight Archive. It comes down to sheer economy of writing. Mistborn is a tightly crafted, well-thought out piece of writing. We won't have the basis of comparison for Stormlight for another 10 years (at best). With that being said, every Stormlight novel is much better than any Mistborn sequel.
theBoneyKing 04.10.18	When odium is one of your Latin vocabulary words for the week
artiswar 04.10.18	Anyone have their list of best fantasy novels? I'm gonna do a list soon but I'm still undecided.