Trifolium
06.17.20 | No to djent!!!!
A quite controversial choice of top 5 with which I don't even disagree that much actually! Nothing is my 1 (the 2006 version) and Koloss would be up there too. As would DEI, Chaosphere and Obzen. |
MO
06.17.20 | 2 is 1, then catch 33 and DEI |
MementoMori
06.17.20 | @Trifolium: The djent remark was a bit of a cheeky joke: The Violent Sleep of Reason has Meshuggah's best: compositions, atonal lead work, drumming (Clockworks, Nostrum, MonstroCity etc.), vocals (Jens aboslutely belts on that record) and production (it's exteremly raw), the record was also live recorded and the riffs are absolutely incredible (Stifled, By The Ton, title track etc.).
And yeah, I do mean the 2006 remaster with Nothing. I would say the songs are a little 'samey' and lack the variation TVSoR offers.
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parksungjoon
06.17.20 | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmOS8xFog_g |
MementoMori
06.17.20 | @MO: Nah, Nothing's lead work, drumming and song writing is inferior to TVSoR. Granted, the production is on par and some of the riffs are crushing. Also, it's a little more sterile and homogeneous compared to TVSoR, a record recorded live in the studio as well. Catch 33's production is terrible and the mechanical drum sound is not my style. DEI's thrash metal sound isn't my style and I think the vocals on that record, and Chaosphere, as well as the production is subpar. |
SteakByrnes
06.17.20 | 2 is 1 [2] |
MementoMori
06.17.20 | Name a single song on Nothing that is superior to Clockworks, By The Ton, MonstroCity, Stifled or The Violent Sleep of Reason. I'll wait. |
Ziggity
06.17.20 | Idk it’s preference probably, but there’s perpetual black second, closed eye visuals, straws pulled at random, organic shadows and spasm. TVSOR has my favorite production for sure though. |
parksungjoon
06.17.20 | u should check that link theres a cool moment later in that song thats like woah these guys were fuckin ahead of their time for 1989 no wonder everyones ripping them off |
SteakByrnes
06.17.20 | Yea what Ziggity said |
MementoMori
06.17.20 | I can see where you're a coming from (I absolutely adore Nothing, especially the remaster), but the record does have a tendency to play its riffs into the ground, yet the lead work, the drumming, the vocals/lyrics, the atmosphere and overall tone, I think TVSoR beats that record in all of those categories. |
Ziggity
06.17.20 | Yea there’s no ranking that I can vehemently disagree with when it comes to these guys. My top 5 would probably be Nothing, chaosphere, c33, DEI, and obzen. Even though I really dislike the production on obzen, it’s got some of my favorite tracks by them. |
bigweinerdon
06.17.20 | Violent Sleep is amazing agreed. Id probs get rid of the I ep and get catch 33 in there somewhere though. DEI wouldn't make my top 5 either. Good list. |
MementoMori
06.17.20 | @Ziggity: Bleed, Dancers..., Electric Red and Pravus are all bangers for sure.
@bigweinerdon: I has, well, the track I, which is amazing (I know my description said albums). Granted, catch has some great atmosphere, yet its production and mechanical drum sound doesn't necessarily appeal to me. |
BenThatsMyJamin
06.17.20 | 1 and 3 are their worst imo |
KingdomOfTyrant
06.17.20 | imagine saying obzen is their worst |
MementoMori
06.17.20 | Imagine thinking TVSoR is their worst. Obzen is an excellent progressive-metal record, TVSoR is a modern metal masterpiece. |
DarkSideOfLucca
06.17.20 | This is the greatest list of all time.
Best band ever.
Every album is the best, so every ranking is correct (except for their first album). |
DarkSideOfLucca
06.17.20 | imagine saying obzen is their worst [2]
Imagine thinking TVSoR is their worst. [2] |
BenThatsMyJamin
06.17.20 | Feels uninspired, like them just writing what their fans want to hear. Which for a band that has innovated so much is disappointing. Bleed is one of their most boring songs, I don't care that it's hard to play on drums, like cool but it isn't great to listen to for 7 mins. Lethargica is tryhard. Production sucks too. I'd say all their albums have a unique identity apart from those two, they're just 'grey'. |
BenThatsMyJamin
06.17.20 | I mean most people agree if you look at the rating for TVSOR |
MementoMori
06.17.20 | I would say lyrically, in terms of lead work, in terms of drumming, in terms of recording style, in terms of building atmosphere, TVSoR is by far their most unique record. Koloss, Nothing, Obzen, they are much closer together than TVSoR is to any of them. Obzen indeed has weak production, that much is certain, but the compositions are amazing, including Bleed, that shit bangs. |
MementoMori
06.17.20 | @Ben: I'm not particularly concerned with popular appeal, unless you want to argue pop music is of the highest quality because it reaches the top of the billboard. Some people seem to have gone along with the popular opinion of 'the record shows the band is stagnating'. I don't understand why:
the recording style, the lead work, the drumming, the emphasis on atmosphere, it's not easily comparable to any other Meshuggah record. It's the most technically and compositionally impressive record in their discography, it's the most rhythmically dense, it's the most atmospheric, it has the BEST guitar solos FR has ever composed, it has the most politically thoughtful lyrics and so on.
I suppose, it's also the darkest, most unpolished and therefore inaccissible record in the band's discography, which would explain some of the backlash, it's indeed more impenetrable than any MS release. I would say it's the most difficult Meshuggah record to listen through in one go and completely dissect, precisely because it's their most sonically challenging and compositionally impressive record. |
BenThatsMyJamin
06.17.20 | Thordendal's lead work is clearly at its most interesting, inventive, innovative, in... etc. on DEI whatever you think of the thrash sound. He clearly wasn't that invested in TVSOR seeing as he basically didn't write on it and hasn't been touring with them recently.
I would say Obzen and TVSOR are more related given the thrash-y influences on both. Nothing and Koloss are more pure djent (especially Nothing, obvs). |
BenThatsMyJamin
06.17.20 | Lol that has nothing to do with what I was saying, I was saying it's ridiculous to say "imagine thinking this..." when a lot of people who clearly love Meshuggah think the same thing.
It's interesting that you say that though seeing as you use technicality and 'compositional impressiveness' as a measure of quality/enjoyability.
C33 and I are both much more compositionally impressive imo, even though that has nothing to do with how good they are/aren't. |
MementoMori
06.17.20 | I would say that the atonal lead work on songs like Nostrum, MonstroCity et cetera, is so far ahead of anything that Meshuggah has done. The production far outways any other Meshuggah record too. As for Thrash influences, clearly DEI, Chaosphere would be closer to obzen. Koloss is probably closest to TSVoR, with its highly mechanical and oppressively dark sound and anarchist lyrical content.
Nothing is the only record that stands on par with TSVoR in terms of riffs, but unlike that record, Nothing overly relies upon beating a single riff into the ground. TSVoR is siginfincantly more varied in this regard (and it's riffs are kinda superior anyway). Also, Jens vocals are way better on TSVoR, and again, the drumming is too (Clockworks, Nostrum, the solo on MonstroCity). |
Ziggity
06.17.20 | I kinda like how c33 goes all in on the mechanical sound. It also has in death is death which is one of my top shuggah tracks, and entrapments solo is one of my favorites ever. |
MementoMori
06.17.20 | @Ben: I would say technicallity and compositional complexity far outweigh popular opinion. Maybe I think all of those low ratings are misguided? Anyway, C33's production is terrible, the drum programming sounds horrid and the transitions are super hackneyed, the epic builds and climaxes are non-existent. TSVoR beats it in all of these regards.
I is an improvised piece, hailing it's compositional complexity is misguided I think, especially given how poor some of the changes on the record are managed and how abruptly they're implemented. |
MementoMori
06.17.20 | @Ziggity: sure, but TSVoR sounds oppressively mechanical as well, and it's still live recorded and has a highly unpolished production. c33 sounds needlessly sterile in comparison. Death is death is a banger though and that solo is indeed sexy. That being said, Monstrocity's solo is also amazing. |
Ziggity
06.17.20 | Monstrocity is underrated for sure, never got the hate for that track other than the name of it. |
BenThatsMyJamin
06.17.20 | I'm saying BOTH are dumb measures of quality !
"the epic builds and climaxes are non-existent"
Lol imagine saying that in a world where Dehumanization exists
Also Jens sounds like he needs a lozenge on TVSOR, first record where he's started showing his age idk |
BAT
06.17.20 | Lol obzen/catch33 'weak production'. Tvsor is oddly underrated, i definitely wouldnt call thordenals work on it uninspired. |
BenThatsMyJamin
06.17.20 | Preferring wanky, disinterested-in-the-recording-process Thordendal to the innovator buttery-smooth jazz Thordendal from DEI is a pretty abhorrent opinion tbh.
"it's the most atmospheric"
That opinion plus this comment convinces me you haven't listened to DEI |
Ziggity
06.17.20 | Jens best performance for me is chaosphere no question. |
Nerdurosis
06.17.20 | band is chode |
Ziggity
06.17.20 | Agreed |
BenThatsMyJamin
06.17.20 | Jens best performance for me is chaosphere no question."
Yeah for sure man
Sounds like he snorted a fat line before they hit record on every song and what were supposed to be djent anthems ended up as technical groove metal madness cos they had to double the tempo for him |
BenThatsMyJamin
06.17.20 | Dude is a maniac on there |
MementoMori
06.17.20 | @Ben: I don't see how technical skill or compositional quality are irrelevant, I would say they are some of most important points mentioned by music critics, including on this site, especially in relation to progressive metal. Dehumanization literally doesn't have a climax. It's a decently composed piece, but it has that staccato part around the two minute mark which utterly kills the momentum and it's like 3 minutes long: i.e. not enought to build a climax. What a poor example.
Jens' vocal performance has always lacked the type of pristine 'I took lessons from a vocal coach' approach, but he reaches some insane extended growls on that record (By The Ton anyone?). Without the polished production he sounds more raw than normal, if that's 'showing his age', then he's ageing like fine whine my dude. His vocals on Chaosphere on the other hand, they sound horrible at times. The dude is using way too much of his vocal folds, lacks distortion and power/range as a consequence, he's barking like a castrated dog and he genuinely sounds like he's ruining his voice.
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Ziggity
06.17.20 | Idk memento I dig the unhinged castrated dog vox he has going on there. I think it fits the sound really well on that record but wouldn’t work on any of their other stuff. |
BenThatsMyJamin
06.17.20 | Most music reviewers listen to an album twice disinterestedly and then write a review ASAP just so they can be the first to review, it's not like they write based on how much they actually enjoy the album or get emotionally invested in it lol I wish I was as starry-eyed as you.
Dehumanization IS the climax dumbo. You shouldn't listen to albums on shuffle.
Also I can almost guarantee you're gonna be on your own if you're saying that song is a poor climax lol. Can't wait til Lucca sees this. |
BenThatsMyJamin
06.17.20 | Also I'd say the most raw and cathartic vocal performances come out of disregarding the health of your vocal chords e.g. Corey on Iowa, Dmitri Manikakis on Calculating Infinity, early-mid era Devin Townsend (Alien), Phil Anselmo on CFH etc. |
BenThatsMyJamin
06.17.20 | But based on your comments thus far I'm guessing you prefer calculated (read: sterile) sounds in general |
MementoMori
06.17.20 | @Ben: If Dehumanization is supposed to a climax, it's not much of a climax at all, certainly not for a metal record. It's a testament to poor use of syncopation if anything. Whether your preconceived notions of the reviewer attitudes are correct, is beside the point: song writing and instrumental skill, especially for a band like Meshuggah, they would be Nothing without them (see what I did there?). Also, Chaosphere's production, is, to put it bluntly, absolutely dogshit.
@Genuinely, when I listen to metal (except for black metal of course), relatively deep, distorted vocals are the jam, especially if you're going for a dark distorted sound. Jens sounds like he's having voice cracks all over CH and can barerly properly articulate his words. Also, he literally has no range, barerly any impressive extended screams, just nothing really. The fact that Meshuggah overuses staccato syncopation on that record doesn't really, help, the bad production doesn't either. |
MementoMori
06.17.20 | Sometimes I don't mind a little bit of calculation, but if that was really my jam I would probably not put TSVoR in my list. I'd prefer Koloss, Nothing, ObZen or c33 above it for sure. TSVoR has the most unpolished production, Haake went as far as to say that unlike Koloss or ObZen, it wasn't 'too perfect'. |
BenThatsMyJamin
06.17.20 | "If Dehumanization is supposed to a climax, it's not much of a climax at all, certainly not for a metal record."
Ok
Chaosphere's production is terrible you did get that right |
Ziggity
06.17.20 | Yea production on chaosphere is definitely the weak point, it’s never really outright bothered me though. |
MementoMori
06.17.20 | @Ben: also, I'd say better technique will allow you to more properly channel your emotions into your vocal performance. Mikael from Opeth is a perfect example: his best performance is on GR and BWP, his technique was far more on point than on Watershed, as it deteriorated later in his career. |
evilford
06.18.20 | No way in fuckin hell obzen is their worst lmao
I'd go
1. Nothing (rerelease)
2. Obzen
3. DEI
4. Koloss
5. TVSOR |
FR33L0RD
06.18.20 | Recently, only dug Obzen. Nice list, it gives me the craving to jam the rest of their discog. Its been a while. Definitively, one of my fav band. I like all of them, LPs. Personnaly, i really dont have the perspective to place them in order.
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Madbutcher3
06.18.20 | DEI is 1 no questions asked not even close
Might have TVSOR 2, that or chaosphere |
MementoMori
06.18.20 | @Evilford: at least you put the correct record at number 1. I can see the Koloss placement, but DEI's thrashy sound and poor production don't particularly appeal to to me.
@Madbutcher: poor production and thrash influences? Nah my dude. Chaosphere's production is especially bad, as are the vocals.
@FR33: be sure to go through their discog. It's worth it. |
Madbutcher3
06.18.20 | DEI sounds incredible imo, clanky and nasty and mechanical in a really cool way, personally prefer their thrashier albums as well |
Dissonant
06.18.20 | imagine being able to differentiate a single meshuggah song |
Ziggity
06.18.20 | Were you even born in dissonance tho? |
MementoMori
06.18.20 | @Dissonant: imagine thinking that having a specific style implies every single one of your songs sounds so severely identitical you can't possibly tell them apart. Also, imagine 1'ing a masterpiece like TSVoR. Shame on you my dude, shame on you. |
DaveT0738
06.20.20 | I don't agree with number 1 but other than that, respectable top, the rest it's among my favorites too |
MementoMori
06.22.20 | People really need to realise how good TVSoR is. |
DaveT0738
06.22.20 | I wish i could |
evilford
06.22.20 | To be fair, it is great but probably not number 1 on most people's lists |
bigweinerdon
06.22.20 | It would definitely be top 3 in my list. DEI would probably be outside my 5, that album has gotten phased out. Chaospheres production is too god awful to put it anywhere near the top, although the songs are good |
DaveT0738
06.22.20 | I've never experienced any issue with Chaosphere's production, and yeah, that album is fire |
bigguytoo9
06.27.20 | Nothing and Catch 33 are tied for my number 1 spot. I go back and fourth on which I like more. I EP is really god damn good too, id put that in my top 5 as well. |